working4christ2

**grannymh** · May 15, '13, 4:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

The following is what Duffield and Van Cleave say in Foundations of Pentecostal Theology (pp. 172-173):

. . . The key verse in this passage [Romans 5:12-21] is verse 12 . . . sin did not begin with Adam; it merely entered into the human race through him. It had its beginning with Lucifer (Ez. 28:12-17). The important expression here is, "For all have sinned." The Greek aorist tense is used, which indicates a single, completed past action. Thus, "all have sinned" is better rendered "all sinned." . . .

"Sinned" is not equivalent to "became sinful." Paul does not say death passed upon all men for that Adam sinned, but "for that all sinned" (v. 12, emphasis added).

Adam was the natural head of the human race, so that all men were in him when he sinned. Thus, we all are sinners because we sinned in him. This principle is illustrated in Hebrews 7:9-10 . . .

In like manner, the whole human race was in Adam, its natural head, when he sinned. God thus imputes the sin of Adam to each member of the race. . . no one would claim that each individual in Adam's race consciously and purposefully sinned in Adam, yet there can be no doubt that God reckons that each member of the race sinned in Adam's transgression. In 1 Corinthians 15:22 we read, "For as in Adam all die." . . .

. . . In verse 14 we are told that Adam was the figure or type "of him that was to come," Christ Jesus. . . .

. . . If any feel that it is unjust that the sin of Adam should be imputed to all his posterity, by the same reasoning it would be unjust to impute the righteousness of Jesus Christ to those who believe in Him. Yet this is the basis of our justification and salvation.

It is essential to realize that not every Scripture key verse is automatically a Catholic doctrine.

The visible Catholic Church which operates on earth has a specific protocol dating to Acts, chapter 15. This protocol is based on chapter 14, Gospel of John.

The Index of Citations, page 689 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, is what I will use in order to backtrack the Scripture verses above.

**grannymh** · #**259** May 15, '13, 4:19 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by guanophore

I think this might be one of the key differences Itwin. The Apostles taught that the sin of Adam was not imputed to all of us, but the consequence of his sin only. We are not held responsible for the personal sins of our ancestors, even the original ones. So all of humanity is then born into the world in this state of separation from God, such that we yearn for Him, but are unable to reach Him apart from grace.

This is basic Catholic doctrine.

PJM · #**260** May 15, '13, 12:05 pm

Quote:

=ltwin;10723968]No, I don't believe that. Most Pentecostals don't believe that either.

What the majority of Pentecostals believe is that speaking in tongues is the evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit.The baptism in the Holy Spirit is not salvation. Pentecostals believe that those who have been truly born again have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, but we also believe one can be baptized or filled with the Holy Spirit that empowers an individual to live the Christian life and do what God would have of them to do. The language the Assemblies of God uses when discussing the baptism in the Holy Spirit is: "This experience is distinct from and subsequent to the experience of the new birth." (See Assemblies of God Statement of Fundamental Truths).

A further question on your position of Baptism if I may?

John 3:5 and mt. 28:18-20 seem clearly ???? to indicate the absolute necessity for salvation of Christian baotism. WHY?

"Because it is the ONLY way that Original Sin can and is removed" Catholic Teaching

The sacrament of Baptiam ALSO removes both ALL prior sins AND the latent [temporal punishment] due to them. Also catholic Teaching.

Because one absoutely be "perfect" to enter into God's Presence; one who is baptized and then dies w'o further sinning is PERFECTED and would on the basis of Baptism alone; attain heaven. Another Catholic teaching.

How does your faith differ from this?

Luke 6:40 "The disciple is not above his master: but every one shall be perfect, if he be as his master"

Matt.5; 48\]" You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect"

God Bless,
pat/PJM

**guanophore** · #**261** May 15, '13, 2:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJM

A further question on your position of Baptism if I may?

John 3:5 and mt. 28:18-20 seem clearly ???? to indicate the absolute necessity for salvation of Christian baotism. WHY?

"Because it is the ONLY way that Original Sin can and is removed" Catholic Teaching

The sacrament of Baptiam ALSO removes both ALL prior sins AND the latent [temporal punishment] due to them. Also catholic Teaching.

Because one absoutely be "perfect" to enter into God's Presence; one who is baptized and then dies w'o further sinning is PERFECTED and would on the basis of Baptism alone; attain heaven. Another Catholic teaching.

How does your faith differ from this?

Luke 6:40 "The disciple is not above his master: but every one shall be perfect, if he be as his master"

Matt.5; 48\]" You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect"

God Bless,
pat/PJM

Pentecostalism has been influenced by Calvanism in this respect. Calvin wanted to separate the Church/authority and the sacramental life from faith so that the Church could function without the successors of the Apostles. In doing so, he purged the Church of almost every tangible evidence of the faith, and separated the "baptism" of the Spirit from the water. Ever since that time, Protestants have leaned on the conversion experience, rather than the scriptural and apostolic experience of sacramental baptism. Calvin kept the water, but it is described as a "sign of faith before the community" (a completely unbiblical claim) rather than an activity that confers any grace.

PJM · #**262** May 15, '13, 4:15 pm

Quote:

=guanophore;10751899]Pentecostalism has been influenced by Calvanism in this respect. Calvin wanted to separate the Church/authority and the sacramental life from faith so that the Church could function without the successors of the Apostles. In doing so, he purged the Church of almost every tangible evidence of the faith, and separated the "baptism" of the Spirit from the water. Ever since that time, Protestants have leaned on the conversion experience, rather than the scriptural and apostolic experience of sacramental baptism. Calvin kept the water, but it is described as a "sign of faith before the community" (a completely unbiblical claim) rather than an activity that confers any grace.

Thanks for the explaination.

i pray my response isn't taken wrong:

I AGREE with Archbishop Sheens Comment:

"The truth remains the truth even if no one believes it & a lie remains a lie even if everyone believes it."

I FULLY understand that God alone controls conversions. That said; I am still amazed that so many fail to grasp this very simple; very logical concept:

There is One God [we agree]

One God CAN [logically; theologically and Morally] have only One set of Faith beliefs

Christ founded Only One Church, with One set of faith beliefs founded on our One God.

Thanks again!

ltwin · #**263** May 15, '13, 7:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJM

A further question on your position of Baptism if I may?

John 3:5 and mt. 28:18-20 seem clearly ???? to indicate the absolute necessity for salvation of Christian baotism. WHY?

Jesus said in Matthew 28,

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

While this indicates that the Church is called to make disciples in all nations and to teach them to observe all that Christ commanded, it does not suggest in any way that salvation is dependent on or a consequence of baptism. What it indicates is that baptism in or into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is part of the process of becoming a disciple. Baptism is not optional, but our perfection or regeneration is not accomplished by water baptism.

Jesus said in John 3:5,

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

What else does Scripture tell us about this new birth, this regeneration? Paul says in Titus 3:4-7,

But when the goodness and lovingkindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

It is a cleansing of all that is past and a renewal of all that is in the future. We become new creations, and this regeneration is the firstfruits of Christ making all things new (Romans 8:23).

Paul states further in Colossians 2:11-14,

In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Baptism is a burial service for the old man, the spiritually dead and corrupt man. This is why after the new birth has been experienced baptism should not be delayed. It should follow closely after conversion. When we rise up out of the waters of baptism it is through faith that we rise with Christ. It is through faith that we are united to Christ and to his body. This theme is restated in Galatians 3:23-27,

Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

It is through faith that we become sons of God. Baptism and our putting on of Christ and our identification with his death, burial, and resurrection follow from faith. This is why we do not baptize infants. It is through faith that the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit are accomplished.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJM

"Because it is the ONLY way that Original Sin can and is removed" Catholic Teaching

We disagree. The guilt of Adam's sin that is applied to us, imputed sin, is remedied by Christ's imputed righteousness by justification. The inherent, inbred sin is remedied by imparted righteousness, the sanctifying work of the Spirit. The first is instantaneous; the second is progressive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJM

The sacrament of Baptiam ALSO removes both ALL prior sins AND the latent [temporal punishment] due to them. Also catholic Teaching.

Because one absoutely be "perfect" to enter into God's Presence; one who is baptized and then dies w'o further sinning is PERFECTED and would on the basis of Baptism alone; attain heaven. Another Catholic teaching.

How does your faith differ from this?

Luke 6:40 "The disciple is not above his master: but every one shall be perfect, if he be as his master"

Matt.5; 48\]" You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect"

We believe a purpose of baptism is that it signifies the believer's identification with Christ. Believers are baptized "into" the name of God, indicating they enter into the realm of Christ's lordship and authority. In baptism, the believer testifies that he was in Christ when Christ was judged for sin, that he was buried with Him, and that he has risen to new life in Him. It indicates that the believer has died to the old and been made new. The act of baptism does not effect this identification with Christ, but it presupposes and symbolizes it. It enacts the moment when one who had been an enemy of Christ fully surrenders to Him.

Baptism also signals the believer's identification with the body of Christ, the Church. Baptized believers are initiated into the community of faith and give public testimony to their inclusion with the people of God. It's more than just being obedient to Christ's command. It is part of becoming His disciple.

Hat4 · #**264** May 15, '13, 7:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Squarebaby

It is not theological difference but more stylistic differences between local congregations. In general at this time COGIC churches besides being historically Black tend to emphasis the speaking of tongues more then the Foursquare Church. And historically because of segregation patterns of the only foriegn language speaking AOG churches tend to be located in or near Black communities while Foursquare tends to be like the United Methodist and found in most ethnic communities.

I hate to show my ignorance but what does 4 square stand for? I've heard of it before but never knew what it meant. As for stylistic differences I assume you mean between AOG and COGIC since it seems that believing in the Trinity versus not would be more than a stylistic difference.

ltwin · #**265** May 15, '13, 7:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hat4

I hate to show my ignorance but what does 4 square stand for? I've heard of it before but never knew what it meant. As for stylistic differences I assume you mean between AOG and COGIC since it seems that believing in the Trinity versus not would be more than a stylistic difference.

We're not discussing Oneness Pentecostals. We're discussing Trinitarian Pentecostals, who are not divided on any major doctrines. The Oneness Pentecostals' bizarre non-Trinitarianism obviously puts them outside the boundaries of historic, creedal Christianity.

4Squarebaby · #**266** May 15, '13, 7:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hat4

I hate to show my ignorance but what does 4 square stand for? I've heard of it before but never knew what it meant.

Forgive me for the cut and paste job

The term "Foursquare Gospel" came about during an intense revival in the city of Oakland, Calif., in July 1922. To a crowd of thousands, Aimee Semple McPherson explained Ezekiel's vision in the book of Ezekiel, chapter one. Ezekiel saw God revealed as a being with four different faces: a man, a lion, an ox and an eagle.

To Sister Aimee, those four faces were like the four phases of the gospel of Jesus Christ. In the face of the man, she saw Jesus our Savior. In the face of the lion, she saw Jesus the mighty Baptizer with the Holy Spirit and fire. In the face of the ox, she saw Jesus the Great Burden-Bearer, who took our infirmities and carried our sicknesses. In the face of the eagle, she saw Jesus the Coming King, who will return in power and victory for the church. It was a perfect, complete Gospel. It was a Gospel that faces squarely in every direction; it was the “Foursquare Gospel.” The four symbols perhaps most identified with Foursquare today are the cross, cup, dove and crown which stand for Jesus the Savior, Jesus the Healer, Jesus the Baptizer with the Holy Spirit, and Jesus the Soon-Coming King, respective

Quote:

As for stylistic differences I assume you mean between AOG and COGIC since it seems that believing in the Trinity versus not would be more than a stylistic difference.

Yes by stylistic difference I mean what it will look like inside of the church. Where the leadership will sit and what they will normally wear. The predominate music played. How the congregations respond to the speaker. How often you will hear either a prophetic tongue or just members of the congregation singing out in their prayer language. The major reason there are two distinct organizations today between the AoG and COGIC is because of segregation in the United States of 1916 and the heavy presence of Black church leaders who came from the Azusa Street revivals. So today while the AoG is the largest Pentecostal organization worldwide in the United States the mostly African American COGIC is the largest Pentecostal organization. Some other cultural drift has occurred over the century since then but the split and the reason most would jump churches between was and is not theological

At my first church home the nearest mega-church is The West Angeles COGIC senior pastored by the organization's Presiding Bishop. When we received new members from them the major reason was that 20,000 was just too large from them and ours was a upper medium sized church with room to grow

Miriam1947 · #**267** May 15, '13, 8:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

snip...

It is through faith that we become sons of God. Baptism and our putting on of Christ and our identification with his death, burial, and resurrection follow from faith. This is why we do not baptize infants. It is through faith that the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit are accomplished.

snip...

We believe a purpose of baptism is that it signifies the believer's identification with Christ. Believers are baptized "into" the name of God, indicating they enter into the realm of Christ's lordship and authority. In baptism, the believer testifies that he was in Christ when Christ was judged for sin, that he was buried with Him, and that he has risen to new life in Him. It indicates that the believer has died to the old and been made new. The act of baptism does not effect this identification with Christ, but it presupposes and symbolizes it. It enacts the moment when one who had been an enemy of Christ fully surrenders to Him.

Baptism also signals the believer's identification with the body of Christ, the Church. Baptized believers are initiated into the community of faith and give public testimony to their inclusion with the people of God. It's more than just being obedient to Christ's command. It is part of becoming His disciple.

Since Christ came to fulfill the law and the law was that male children were circumcised at 8 days, how can baptism be only an identification with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, and not part of the new covenant and therefore you deny the baptism of infants? How does that work?

As a baptized Catholic convert, would your church want to re-baptize me?

I was not an infant at the time

ltwin · #**268** May 15, '13, 8:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miriam1947

Since Christ came to fulfill the law and the law was that male children were circumcised at 8 days, how can baptism be only an identification with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, and not part of the new covenant and therefore you deny the baptism of infants? How does that work?

Because baptism is not like circumcising an infant. In Christ, we are "circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ." The circumcision of Christ is the cutting away not of flesh but of the carnal nature. It is the nailing of sin to the cross. It is the taking off of the old man and being made new in Christ. This is through faith and reflected in baptism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miriam1947

As a baptized Catholic convert, would your church want to re-baptize me?

I was not an infant at the time

No. If you were baptized as an adult on your own confession of faith and in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit we would have no reason to baptize you again.

Pentecostals personally prefer baptism by immersion, but generally we are not dogmatic on one particular mode of baptism. If converts were baptized as adults, it doesn't matter if it was by sprinkling, pouring, or full immersion.

Miriam1947 · #**269** May 16, '13, 5:30 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

Because baptism is not like circumcising an infant. In Christ, we are "circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ." The circumcision of Christ is the cutting away not of flesh but of the carnal nature. It is the nailing of sin to the cross. It is the taking off of the old man and being made new in Christ. This is through faith and reflected in baptism.

No. If you were baptized as an adult on your own confession of faith and in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit we would have no reason to baptize you again.

Pentecostals personally prefer baptism by immersion, but generally we are not dogmatic on one particular mode of baptism. If converts were baptized as adults, it doesn't matter if it was by sprinkling, pouring, or full immersion.

If Catholics, who were baptized at birth, converted to your church, would they need to be re-baptized?

peace2u2 · #**270** May 16, '13, 5:54 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

Because baptism is not like circumcising an infant. In Christ, we are "circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ." The circumcision of Christ is the cutting away not of flesh but of the carnal nature. It is the nailing of sin to the cross. It is the taking off of the old man and being made new in Christ. This is through faith and reflected in baptism.

No. If you were baptized as an adult on your own confession of faith and in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit we would have no reason to baptize you again.

Pentecostals personally prefer baptism by immersion, but generally we are not dogmatic on one particular mode of baptism. If converts were baptized as adults, it doesn't matter if it was by sprinkling, pouring, or full immersion.

Jesus did not come to do away with the Old Covenant law, but to fulfill it in the New Covenant law thereby replacing “circumcision” with “baptism”. Circumcision is now replaced by baptism which actually shows the close relationship between the two - just as circumcision was done on a part of the body that was hidden from view, it is now replaced with baptism or “circumcision of our hearts”, a part of the body that is also hidden. Only God truly knows a man’s heart, which is hidden from man. Just as circumcision on the male reproductive organ, the seal and sign of being God’s chosen for the Israelites, is now replaced with “baptism”, the indelible mark, or seal and sign on our souls that can never be removed which shows that we belong to God as His children.

Please show me in Scripture where Jesus says NOT to baptize an infant.

Infant Baptism is a gift from God. There is nothing in this world that quite compares to showing the very nature of God’s love. God loves us before we love Him; He loves us and knew us before we were even knit in our mother’s womb. Even our desire for Him is a gift -His gift. Nothing in this world can quite compare to showing the wideness of God’s love, as God withholds His love from no one - not even a little baby. It does not matter how smart we are. Intelligence is not a qualification for knowing and loving God - God is open to everyone - and who is more open than a little baby? There is no actual sin, no guilt and no refusal of God’s love and since we cannot completely understand how God’s love works, we cannot limit it to just adults.

Psalms 139:13-14
You formed my inmost being;
You knit me in my mother’s womb.
I praise you, so wonderfully you
Made me; wonderful are your works!
My very self you knew;

And, since we are born with out the love of God in our souls, we need to be baptized so our souls are opened to receive God’s love in our souls. Our spiritual walk home to heaven is a process which according to Scripture begins before we are even born, before there was even time. This relationship with God is something that does not begin when we become smart enough or old enough to understand who God is or how His love works because we will never fully understand those things, so why would we limit God’s love?

Article on Infant Baptism and immersion:
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/baptism-immersion-only

Song, "I Have Always Loved You", Third Day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06khEqzGEsc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost and Found
This picture was taken by a photographer who had promised the mother of the child he would give her a copy as she could not afford a picture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

This picture was taken by a photographer who had promised the mother of the child he would give her a copy as she could not afford a picture.

http://deepertruthblog.blogspot.com/...my-mother.html

Jesus says, "Let the little ones come to me and do not hinder them."

working4christ2

Friday, May 24, 2013

One God CAN [logically; theologically and Morally] have only One set of Faith beliefs Christ founded Only One Church, with One set of faith beliefs founded on our One God

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