A further question on your position of Baptism if I may? John 3:5 and mt. 28:18-20 seem clearly ???? to indicate the absolute necessity for salvation of Christian baotism. WHY?

May 15, '13, 4:15 pm

PJM Veteran Member   Join Date: August 31, 2008 Location: Centeral Florida Posts: 9,038 Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic

Re: Ask a Pentecostal Quote: =guanophore;10751899]Pentecostalism has been influenced by Calvanism in this respect. Calvin wanted to separate the Church/authority and the sacramental life from faith so that the Church could function without the successors of the Apostles. In doing so, he purged the Church of almost every tangible evidence of the faith, and separated the "baptism" of the Spirit from the water. Ever since that time, Protestants have leaned on the conversion experience, rather than the scriptural and apostolic experience of sacramental baptism. Calvin kept the water, but it is described as a "sign of faith before the community" (a completely unbiblical claim) rather than an activity that confers any grace. Thanks for the explaination. i pray my response isn't taken wrong: I AGREE with Archbishop Sheens Comment: "The truth remains the truth even if no one believes it & a lie remains a lie even if everyone believes it." I FULLY understand that God alone controls conversions. That said; I am still amazed that so many fail to grasp this very simple; very logical concept: There is One God [we agree] One God CAN [logically; theologically and Morally] have only One set of Faith beliefs Christ founded Only One Church, with One set of faith beliefs founded on our One God. Thanks again! __________________ PJM http://working4christ2.wordpress.com Can we partake of God's GLORY and NOT partake of His PASSION? NO! A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."

#263     May 15, '13, 7:00 pm

ltwin Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 1,699 Religion: Pentecostal

Re: Ask a Pentecostal Quote: Originally Posted by PJM A further question on your position of Baptism if I may? John 3:5 and mt. 28:18-20 seem clearly ???? to indicate the absolute necessity for salvation of Christian baotism. WHY? Jesus said in Matthew 28, Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age. While this indicates that the Church is called to make disciples in all nations and to teach them to observe all that Christ commanded, it does not suggest in any way that salvation is dependent on or a consequence of baptism. What it indicates is that baptism in or into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is part of the process of becoming a disciple. Baptism is not optional, but our perfection or regeneration is not accomplished by water baptism. Jesus said in John 3:5, Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. What else does Scripture tell us about this new birth, this regeneration? Paul says in Titus 3:4-7, But when the goodness and lovingkindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. It is a cleansing of all that is past and a renewal of all that is in the future. We become new creations, and this regeneration is the firstfruits of Christ making all things new (Romans 8:23). Paul states further in Colossians 2:11-14, In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. Baptism is a burial service for the old man, the spiritually dead and corrupt man. This is why after the new birth has been experienced baptism should not be delayed. It should follow closely after conversion. When we rise up out of the waters of baptism it is through faith that we rise with Christ. It is through faith that we are united to Christ and to his body. This theme is restated in Galatians 3:23-27, Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. It is through faith that we become sons of God. Baptism and our putting on of Christ and our identification with his death, burial, and resurrection follow from faith. This is why we do not baptize infants. It is through faith that the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit are accomplished. Quote: Originally Posted by PJM "Because it is the ONLY way that Original Sin can and is removed" Catholic Teaching We disagree. The guilt of Adam's sin that is applied to us, imputed sin, is remedied by Christ's imputed righteousness by justification. The inherent, inbred sin is remedied by imparted righteousness, the sanctifying work of the Spirit. The first is instantaneous; the second is progressive. Quote: Originally Posted by PJM The sacrament of Baptiam ALSO removes both ALL prior sins AND the latent [temporal punishment] due to them. Also catholic Teaching. Because one absoutely be "perfect" to enter into God's Presence; one who is baptized and then dies w'o further sinning is PERFECTED and would on the basis of Baptism alone; attain heaven. Another Catholic teaching. How does your faith differ from this? Luke 6:40 "The disciple is not above his master: but every one shall be perfect, if he be as his master" Matt.5; 48\]" You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" We believe a purpose of baptism is that it signifies the believer's identification with Christ. Believers are baptized "into" the name of God, indicating they enter into the realm of Christ's lordship and authority. In baptism, the believer testifies that he was in Christ when Christ was judged for sin, that he was buried with Him, and that he has risen to new life in Him. It indicates that the believer has died to the old and been made new. The act of baptism does not effect this identification with Christ, but it presupposes and symbolizes it. It enacts the moment when one who had been an enemy of Christ fully surrenders to Him. Baptism also signals the believer's identification with the body of Christ, the Church. Baptized believers are initiated into the community of faith and give public testimony to their inclusion with the people of God. It's more than just being obedient to Christ's command. It is part of becoming His disciple. __________________ Let your love be my companion In the war against my pride. Long to break all vain obsession Till you're all that I desire.