By faith alone? working4christ2

By faith alone? Hi all, I've posted this question elsewhere and received an interesting response, which I shall mention below, but basically the question is for those who believer in salvation and/or justification (beyond initial justification) by faith alone. The question is:How do you interpret Matt 25:31-46? [31] "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. [32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, [33] and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. [34] Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; [35] for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, [36] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' [37] Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? [39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' [40] And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' [41] Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; [42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, [43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' [44] Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' [45] Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' [46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (RSV) The response I received was essentially this: - the "sheep" in the parable are believers in Christ, since "sheep" is used as a metaphor for a follower or believer elsewhere in the Bible, primarily in John's Gospel (see John 10:1-16); - the "goats" are unbelievers; - this is a descriptive not prescriptive account, that is, it doesn't tell use about how the sheep are saved, only that they are, whereas the goats are not; and - the sheep are saved by their faith or belief in Christ: the works are just an outcome of their grace-filled life, whereas unbelievers cannot perform such good works or they are not recognised by Christ. My basic response to this is: - in Matthew's Gospel, "sheep" is not used as a metaphor for believer or follower, and it is not good biblical exegesis to import terms from another Gospel (especially one which isn't a Synoptic Gospel) into Matthew to frame what is going on here; - this point is especially pertinent when considering that John's Gospel was written at least 15-20 years after Matthew's and so would not have been available to the Matthean community, which means their interpretation or understanding of this parable could not have been framed within the context of John's use of the term "sheep"; - if it is a prescriptive account rather than a descriptive account, Jesus' mention of works (which dominate the parable: there are nineteen mentions of "work" activities and not once is faith or belief mentioned) is irrelevant and confusing, but it takes up most of the parable; - following on from this, if Jesus just wanted to tell us in a parable form that believers are saved but non-believers are not, he could have done it in a clearer way: most of the time, the content of Jesus' parables is meaningful to his message, but in this case, it would not seem so; - both the sheep and goats call Jesus "Lord", which suggests faith, yet neither recognised him in their service, so it is difficult to square this completely with a fully aware follower of Christ; - this parable seems to echo what came earlier in Matthew, namely Matt 7:21: "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (RSV) Again, there is an emphasis on works here, just as in the parable, and the use of the word "Lord" to refer to Christ; and finally, - one the face of it, I think it is fair to say that a straightforward reading of the text suggests works contribute to salvation. What do you think?

#2    Mar 5, '13, 9:40 am

dontazemebro  Banned   Join Date: March 5, 2013 Posts: 3 Religion: catholic

Re: By faith alone? if you get the baptism of the Holy Spirit and then actually and factually do what the spirit tells you - then you are Sheep- if you go to chruch and are religious - and follow your own leading - or church direction- you are a goat- this is also why different people who don't know they are goats get the answer"i never knew you" saint paul used Romans 10;8,9,10 for the application of faith alone-- but if you don't get the Holy Spirit- you stay deceived and a goat or as Jesus said to the religious leaders John 8:44-45 King James Version (KJV) 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

#3    Mar 5, '13, 9:46 am

jonathan_hili  Regular Member   Join Date: November 29, 2009 Posts: 987 Religion: Catholic

Re: By faith alone? Quote: Originally Posted by dontazemebro  if you get the baptism of the Holy Spirit and then actually and factually do what the spirit tells you - then you are Sheep- if you go to chruch and are religious - and follow your own leading - or church direction- you are a goat- this is also why different people who don't know they are goats get the answer"i never knew you" saint paul used Romans 10;8,9,10 for the application of faith alone-- but if you don't get the Holy Spirit- you stay deceived and a goat or as Jesus said to the religious leaders John 8:44-45 King James Version (KJV) 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. I understand what you're saying but that is not what the text says. Nowhere does Jesus explain the parable in that way. In fact, he doesn't explain the parable at all, which is telling, that is, that it is self-explanatory purely by reading what it says at first sight. Also, those quotations are from John's Gospel and Paul, not from Matthew.

#4    Mar 5, '13, 10:11 am

Monte RCMS  Senior Member   Join Date: November 9, 2008 Posts: 8,987 Religion: Roman Catholic

Re: By faith alone? 113 posts here already: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=760348 __________________ Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be created. And You will renew the face of the earth.

#5    Mar 5, '13, 10:32 am

Regina Love  Regular Member   Join Date: June 16, 2011 Posts: 888 Religion: Roman Catholic

Re: By faith alone? Quote: Originally Posted by jonathan_hili  Hi all, I've posted this question elsewhere and received an interesting response, which I shall mention below, but basically the question is for those who believer in salvation and/or justification (beyond initial justification) by faith alone. The question is: How do you interpret Matt 25:31-46? [31] "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. [32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, [33] and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. [34] Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; [35] for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, [36] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' [37] Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? [39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' [40] And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' [41] Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; [42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, [43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' [44] Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' [45] Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' [46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (RSV) The response I received was essentially this: - the "sheep" in the parable are believers in Christ, since "sheep" is used as a metaphor for a follower or believer elsewhere in the Bible, primarily in John's Gospel (see John 10:1-16); - the "goats" are unbelievers; - this is a descriptive not prescriptive account, that is, it doesn't tell use about how the sheep are saved, only that they are, whereas the goats are not; and - the sheep are saved by their faith or belief in Christ: the works are just an outcome of their grace-filled life, whereas unbelievers cannot perform such good works or they are not recognised by Christ. My basic response to this is: - in Matthew's Gospel, "sheep" is not used as a metaphor for believer or follower, and it is not good biblical exegesis to import terms from another Gospel (especially one which isn't a Synoptic Gospel) into Matthew to frame what is going on here; - this point is especially pertinent when considering that John's Gospel was written at least 15-20 years after Matthew's and so would not have been available to the Matthean community, which means their interpretation or understanding of this parable could not have been framed within the context of John's use of the term "sheep"; - if it is a prescriptive account rather than a descriptive account, Jesus' mention of works (which dominate the parable: there are nineteen mentions of "work" activities and not once is faith or belief mentioned) is irrelevant and confusing, but it takes up most of the parable; - following on from this, if Jesus just wanted to tell us in a parable form that believers are saved but non-believers are not, he could have done it in a clearer way: most of the time, the content of Jesus' parables is meaningful to his message, but in this case, it would not seem so; - both the sheep and goats call Jesus "Lord", which suggests faith, yet neither recognised him in their service, so it is difficult to square this completely with a fully aware follower of Christ; - this parable seems to echo what came earlier in Matthew, namely Matt 7:21: "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (RSV) Again, there is an emphasis on works here, just as in the parable, and the use of the word "Lord" to refer to Christ; and finally, - one the face of it, I think it is fair to say that a straightforward reading of the text suggests works contribute to salvation. What do you think? the dating of the Gospels is not relevant, because as both authors walked with Jesus, and listened to his parables. It was a common understanding among their group. To understand how they would see the teaching would be to see that they all walked among sheep, and goats, and understood their Nature. Sheep are docile. They follow their master, and look to him for daily food, water, and protection. Goats are contrary, will butt you and push you all over the place. They prefer to be on top of everything, and in charge. They may recognize that God is Lord, but don't do what their master wants. They demand to be the leader! The goats may call him Lord, but they never followed him. The sheep, heard and obeyed.  We can choose to be teachable, and to do what God says will benefit us eternally.