working4christ2

jonathan_hili · Apr 2, '13, 10:38 pm

Hi all,

During the show with Fr Pacwa on 22nd March, a caller (I think his name was Denis, if I remember correctly) stated that he was a former Catholic and now did not believe in the Real Presence, specifically citing John's Gospel. He said that while John doesn't use the word "symbolic" with regards the Eucharist (in the "Bread of Life" discourse) neither does he use the word "literal". Denis then pointed out that throughout this Gospel, Jesus uses figurative language to mean something else, for example, "temple" to mean his body in John 2, being born "again" to mean - he didn't say, so I'll fill it in here - faith, baptism and life through the Spirit, "living water" to mean the Spirit, and so on, concluding that when Jesus said "my flesh" he similarly meant this figuratively to mean something else.

Now, while Fr Pacwa gave a good response, I don't think he really tackled this question, which is one I've heard Protestants bring up before.

I actually think it's a good objection, as far as it goes. However, it does suffer from not reading the text closely enough. If this was all that was going on in John's Gospel, it would be difficult not to concede the issue to some degree, but a closer reading shows that actually a person using this argument has missed precisely John's meaning.

There is much figurative speech in the Gospel (rather, Johanine riddling, which Jesus does a fair bit in this Gospel), but there is also a pattern that goes with it, namely: figurative-mistaken understanding-corrective. Why? Because John is trying to emphasise that faith and true belief in Christ must go beyond the earthly appearance to the spiritual truth. As Jesus says, "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" (John 3:12 RSV)

So, here are some examples (all quotes from RSV):

John 2:19:

Quote:

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

Figurative.

John 2:20:

Quote:

The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"

Mistaken understanding.

John 2:21:

Quote:

But he spoke of the temple of his body.

Corrective.

John 3:3:

Quote:

Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Figurative.

John 3:4:

Quote:

Nicode'mus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

Mistaken understanding.

John 3:5:

Quote:

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Corrective.

John 4:10:

Quote:

Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, `Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water."

Figurative.

John 4:11:

Quote:

The woman said to him, "Sir, you have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep; where do you get that living water?

Mistaken understanding.

John 7:37-39:

Quote:

On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and proclaimed, "If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink.He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, `Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.'" Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Corrective.

John 11:11:

Quote:

Thus he spoke, and then he said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awake him out of sleep."

Figurative.

John 11:12:

Quote:

The disciples said to him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover."

Mistaken understanding.

John 11:14:

Quote:

Then Jesus told them plainly, "Laz'arus is dead..."

Corrective.

Now, the interesting thing is when we get to John 6, we don't see anything like this at all!

For example,

John 6:51:

Quote:

I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

Figurative.

John 6:52:

Quote:

The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

Mistaken understanding.

Where we would expect to find a corrective in this pattern, instead we find:

John 6:53:

Quote:

So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you..."

A greater emphasis on the so-called "figurative".

Nowhere in the chapter or anywhere else in the Gospel, does Jesus use the term "bread from heaven" or similar ones employed here and make it clear that he means something else, e.g. Scripture or faith. Rather, he continues to emphasise the reality of his body and blood.

In fact, he even forces the point (which is remarkable, because it's not something Jesus usually does): "Do you take offense at this?" (John 6:61) and "Do you also wish to go away?" (John 6:67) as if goading his audience and disciples to reject him. This is very unusual behaviour for Jesus, who throughout the Gospel tries to make clear his more figurative or symbolic speech.

I'd invite Denis (if that indeed was his name!) to re-think his objection, and also invite comments

Jonathan

Robyn p · #2 Apr 3, '13, 12:18 am

Very nice.

DeSanto · #3 Apr 3, '13, 4:29 am

I recall listening to a speach not long ago. A catholic professor speaking of his Muslim student who was questioning our faith. There was dialogue in the classroom over the prayers and piety of Muslims and whether that meant they were more spiritual or closer to God. The Eucharist came up and the student actually agreed to attend a mass along with the professor. When the professor asked the student what he thought about the Eucharist, the student was hesitant to reply. The student had the absolute most valid response I had ever heard to express why he doubted the real presence in the Eucharist. He said, "I don't think you really believe that is the real presence, I don't think anyone really believes that." He professor asked why he felt that way. The student replied, "because, if you did, you would never get up off your knees."

I'll try to find the recording and share...

jonathan_hili · #4 Apr 3, '13, 4:44 am

True, that's quite an enlightened response!

Still, we believe in God - and yet we sin, as if God did no exist. There's something funny about humans. Beliefs are never enough, there needs to be emotional attachment, and much more too.

DeSanto · #5 Apr 3, '13, 5:13 am

This is the link...

http://www.philvaz.com/RobertSpencer...eeftDebate.mp3

It is the most interesting debate I have come across in a long time. I encourage anyone interested to take the time to listen to the entire debate. If your only interested in the question at hand, you will find the reference at around 57:00 on the time line.

jonathan_hili · #6 Apr 3, '13, 5:18 am

Wow, Robert Spencer and Peter Kreeft debate?

Somehow I'm not surprised.

DeSanto · #7 Apr 3, '13, 5:50 am

Matthew 9:24 comes to mind when pondering the Real Presence.

"I believe, help my unbelief"

I actually have another great link for anyone interested in better explaining this issue to others. Scott Hahn...takes us all through the OT to the New and looks at just about every angle you could think of regarding this issue.

http://youtu.be/OfGw8G9P4_Y

Enjoy!

jonathan_hili · #8 Apr 3, '13, 6:05 am

Thanks, mate.

I can't access the debate as I'm in China at the moment (no YouTube and most Christian sites).

What is it like?

Z_Ninja · #9 Apr 3, '13, 6:33 am

Great Post!

I've also used that thought before where Jesus did speak in parables, but when his disciples and Apostles didn't understand, He would explain what he meant, but when it came to his body and blood, He let them go and didn't say, "wait, I meant symbolically. and it is 'like my body and like my blood'"

Aaron Creagh · #10 Apr 3, '13, 6:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeSanto

I recall listening to a speach not long ago. A catholic professor speaking of his Muslim student who was questioning our faith. There was dialogue in the classroom over the prayers and piety of Muslims and whether that meant they were more spiritual or closer to God. The Eucharist came up and the student actually agreed to attend a mass along with the professor. When the professor asked the student what he thought about the Eucharist, the student was hesitant to reply. The student had the absolute most valid response I had ever heard to express why he doubted the real presence in the Eucharist. He said, "I don't think you really believe that is the real presence, I don't think anyone really believes that." He professor asked why he felt that way. The student replied, "because, if you did, you would never get up off your knees."

I'll try to find the recording and share...

All I can say is...wow.

Aaron Creagh · #11 Apr 3, '13, 6:43 am

Do people still believe in metaphors?

DeSanto · #12 Apr 3, '13, 6:49 am

Well, basically he explains the Passover, the atonement for sins, sacrificing an unblinished lamb ect ect. He explains exactly how these rituals were done and exactly why and what it meant. The most interesting to me was explaining the cups they drank for Passover and why The Lord, during the last supper, did not drink the last cup as was the ritual, then as He prayed in the garden, He asked God to take this cup from Him. And, he refused to drink until on the cross, when He said "I thirst" and the soldier lifted up the sponge and He drank. This is when he finally said, "It is finished". What was finished? The Passover. See, in the OT, not only was the unblinished lamb to be sacrificed and the blood to be covered over the door posts but, it was not finished until they ate the lamb. It was very specific, they had to eat the lamb or they would not have been protected from the angel of death. The significance of the "Cups", I'm not too much familiar with, I would have to do much more research. It's not something I have considered before.

Now, I think the best argument is the fact that so many turned away when Jesus said, "You must eat my flesh and drink my blood"....

The Jews knew exactly what this meant because they knew the OT references of the Passover sacrifice and it was deffinately taken literally or they would not have turned away. And, you are correct, Jesus did not attempt to correct them as if they had misunderstood, because they did not misunderstand. To explain this to others, you must be able to bring to light the OT rituals of the Passover.

jonathan_hili · #13 Apr 3, '13, 6:53 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z_Ninja

Great Post!

I've also used that thought before where Jesus did speak in parables, but when his disciples and Apostles didn't understand, He would explain what he meant, but when it came to his body and blood, He let them go and didn't say, "wait, I meant symbolically. and it is 'like my body and like my blood'"

That's really true. But I think what's the clincher is that he really pushes the point, almost like he's tempting his followers: "Oh, you don't believe what I'm saying about eating my flesh, well if not, why not leave then?" It's pretty unusual for Jesus to do. I think this really underscores how important the Eucharist is, after all, it is the only way that Jesus is with us bodily. Thank God that He takes account of our flesh!

jonathan_hili · #14 Apr 3, '13, 6:54 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeSanto

Well, basically he explains the Passover, the atonement for sins, sacrificing an unblinished lamb ect ect. He explains exactly how these rituals were done and exactly why and what it meant. The most interesting to me was explaining the cups they drank for Passover and why The Lord, during the last supper, did not drink the last cup as was the ritual, then as He prayed in the garden, He asked God to take this cup from Him. And, he refused to drink until on the cross, when He said "I thirst" and the soldier lifted up the sponge and He drank. This is when he finally said, "It is finished". What was finished? The Passover. See, in the OT, not only was the unblinished lamb to be sacrificed and the blood to be covered over the door posts but, it was not finished until they ate the lamb. It was very specific, they had to eat the lamb or they would not have been protected from the angel of death. The significance of the "Cups", I'm not too much familiar with, I would have to do much more research. It's not something I have considered before.

Now, I think the best argument is the fact that so many turned away when Jesus said, "You must eat my flesh and drink my blood"....

The Jews knew exactly what this meant because they knew the OT references of the Passover sacrifice and it was deffinately taken literally or they would not have turned away. And, you are correct, Jesus did not attempt to correct them as if they had misunderstood, because they did not misunderstand. To explain this to others, you must be able to bring to light the OT rituals of the Passover.

Hehe I meant the debate, DeSanto. Scott Hahn is pretty astute.

chimo · #15 Apr 3, '13, 7:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathan_hili

Hi all,

During the show with Fr Pacwa on 22nd March, a caller (I think his name was Denis, if I remember correctly) stated that he was a former Catholic and now did not believe in the Real Presence, specifically citing John's Gospel. He said that while John doesn't use the word "symbolic" with regards the Eucharist (in the "Bread of Life" discourse) neither does he use the word "literal". Denis then pointed out that throughout this Gospel, Jesus uses figurative language to mean something else, for example, "temple" to mean his body in John 2, being born "again" to mean - he didn't say, so I'll fill it in here - faith, baptism and life through the Spirit, "living water" to mean the Spirit, and so on, concluding that when Jesus said "my flesh" he similarly meant this figuratively to mean something else.

Now, while Fr Pacwa gave a good response, I don't think he really tackled this question, which is one I've heard Protestants bring up before.

I actually think it's a good objection, as far as it goes. However, it does suffer from not reading the text closely enough. If this was all that was going on in John's Gospel, it would be difficult not to concede the issue to some degree, but a closer reading shows that actually a person using this argument has missed precisely John's meaning.

There is much figurative speech in the Gospel (rather, Johanine riddling, which Jesus does a fair bit in this Gospel), but there is also a pattern that goes with it, namely: figurative-mistaken understanding-corrective. Why? Because John is trying to emphasise that faith and true belief in Christ must go beyond the earthly appearance to the spiritual truth. As Jesus says, "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" (John 3:12 RSV)

So, here are some examples (all quotes from RSV):

John 2:19:
Figurative.

John 2:20:
Mistaken understanding.

John 2:21:
Corrective.

John 3:3:
Figurative.

John 3:4:
Mistaken understanding.

John 3:5:
Corrective.

John 4:10:
Figurative.

John 4:11:
Mistaken understanding.

John 7:37-39:
Corrective.

John 11:11:
Figurative.

John 11:12:
Mistaken understanding.

John 11:14:
Corrective.

Now, the interesting thing is when we get to John 6, we don't see anything like this at all!

For example,

John 6:51:
Figurative.

John 6:52:
Mistaken understanding.

Where we would expect to find a corrective in this pattern, instead we find:

John 6:53:
A greater emphasis on the so-called "figurative".

Nowhere in the chapter or anywhere else in the Gospel, does Jesus use the term "bread from heaven" or similar ones employed here and make it clear that he means something else, e.g. Scripture or faith. Rather, he continues to emphasise the reality of his body and blood.

In fact, he even forces the point (which is remarkable, because it's not something Jesus usually does): "Do you take offense at this?" (John 6:61) and "Do you also wish to go away?" (John 6:67) as if goading his audience and disciples to reject him. This is very unusual behaviour for Jesus, who throughout the Gospel tries to make clear his more figurative or symbolic speech.

I'd invite Denis (if that indeed was his name!) to re-think his objection, and also invite comments

Jonathan

That is a very good response on your part. I find when I teach the children and the Altar boys at my local Orthodox Church I use this approach. We need the Holy Spirit before we get to Heaven. When we receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism and Confirmation we are receiving two large deposits of the Holy Spirit without any effort on our part (Eastern Christians can receive Baptism and Confirmation all at once). Now I asked them where are you going to get the rest of these deposits so that your Fullness of the Holy Spirit will be realised. They think about it for awhile and one of them usually will say the correct answer and say Holy Communion. Then I can discuss Holy Communion to them to let them understand that Holy Communion is always giving more deposits of the Holy Spirit to increase your level of His Presence to reach finally to the Fullness which the Holy Mother of God already enjoys. When you receive Jesus in this Sacrament I tell them that Jesus also deposits another Gift in you. He gives you another portion of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Communion is always the work of the Holy Trinity to give you more of His love, this salvation which is imparted to you. In fact I tell them your presence here is part of that work. Well God gave you initially two large deposits without any effort of yours the remaining deposits must come from you attending to the Divine Liturgy (or the Mass for the Catholic). Every time you receive God in Holy Communion a real encounter is taking place. I tell them you were created to contain God! Every Holy Communion is another Bethlehem as the Holy Spirit is sent from the Eternal Father to incarnate the species of bread and wine into Jesus Christ. This same Holy Spirit who incarnates the Lord Jesus in the womb of the Holy Mother is the same Holy Spirit which incarnates Jesus on the Altar. The Holy Spirit does this operation. The Virgin Mary and the Church are functioning the same way. Just as Jesus is incarnated in her womb so the same Jesus is incarnated in the womb of the Church. We then receive the same benefits as Mary did. This is what I teach to the children. Eastern children can receive Holy Communion from their infancy. So teaching them something they can relate to helps them to understand what goes on.

working4christ2

Thursday, May 16, 2013

Doubting the Eucharist - 22nd March show working4christ2

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